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Yes Rod the CCLI thing is interesting. I remember talking to a friend who warned me to be really careful about keeping the licence current. His church let it slip and one sunday, after service someone came up and asked to see doccumentation on all the music they used that day. They ended up paying a big fine. The issue there though, as I understand it, is not with performing the music, you can do that, but if you print out song books or use overheads.

Al don't wory I wasn't offended as indicated by the
after "CANADA IS A SEPARATE NATION" Serge is from Quebec so he will get the Joke, and it's just a joke. As Canadians we are in an interesting position, American think of us as being very British and the Brits think of us as so American. We are very unique. We are very serious here about "Canadian Content" on Radio etc, but other things, such as making copies of music for your own use we are very lienient about. Here it is perfectly legal for me to make a copy of a CD I have to keep a copy in my truck and save the orriginal as a backup.

If, and I do mean if, I was good enough to go sit in a park and have people listen to me play I would not listen to the BMI rep. He would have to pry the guitar out of my hands. Sorry, but MY playing a few of his companies songs will not hurt the sales one copy. Ok, maybe my playing would    . But not someone who can actually play. How many times do you think people who hear live music feel the need to go buy the original. I would have to force the issue, and if needed as stated before, call bob dylan and get him on my side. I doubt his case would hold up in court, and I'd make him prove it before he was going to take away my enjoyment.   I wonder, would it be ok if you sat in the park with a cd playing and a group of people gathered around? Would you need to turn it off if too many showed up? Do we all need to wear headphones so the next guy, who didn't purchase the music, could not listen in? I know it sound ridiculous, but is it any different then playing guitar ? Push back !!!
Mike

By the way, What is BMI?

BMI is a record company, I am not sure if they hold specific band or song copyrights or not. Years ago I thought they only produced cheaper CDs for CD mailorder clubs. That may have changed. They also had many compilations that were not available through the larger record companies. However the quality was not so good..
Mike

BMI is Broadcast Music Incorporated. They are one of two organizations in the USA who collect and redistribute royalties from copyrighted music for the musicians and songwriters. The other organization is ASCAP.

Al

Next time you guys get a visit from the BMI police, send them down here to Texas, I would like to see them attempt compliance here in a city park. I can't believe that they were able to "shut down" a performance, they have no authority, other than to file suit if they desire. I have played at the Chisolm Trail, Pioneer Days and Red Steagal Annual Gathering all in the Stock Yards in Fort Worth and sat around the Chuck Wagon exhibits with lots of guys amatuer and professionals and played all kinds of music, with folks by the thousands stopping by to listen to some good old Cowboy music. It would be pretty funny to see a BMI rep stop by and announce a shut-down, they might find a little different response and better be carrying a really big stick.

Mike
White Oak, Texas

Well said Mike and i won't tell where that fine would end up if they were to start annoying the Poirier family up north... i'll let ya all guess!

I am all for protection for the songwriters and musicians on their original music. Now let me clarify that, if I or anyone wanted to record it, make a music book and print it, and then sell it for a profit.

Once that bad boy is out in the market, I figure out the licks, and am playing for free in a sit around jam session, all is fair game. Infringement has to involve a realized "gain" of something of value, like money.
You see when I play for pay, they are not paying me for the music, that's free, they are paying me cause I'm purty with a nice smile....

Mike
White Oak, Texas

Mike, wanna see a pic a you face right now!

I am with mikev. I'd consider this a joke... someone would have to come up with a lot more than a law to tell me what to do or not to do. Crying "copyright" is so common and so unenforced its ridiculous.

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Remember though Josh, that we live by the law everyday. We may not obey the law, I certainly don't everytime I drive my car, but that law is there. I've never killed anyone, but sometimes, running someone off the road sure looks good in my mind's eye, untill the law gets in the way.

But overall, I agree, as far as the BMI thing goes. Playing in a park, singing kumbia or froggy went a courtin' or summer of 69 should not be illegal, in fact it may just sell more records. Heck, those BMI legal types should be forking over some dough just because you've just increased the "distribution" of their artist's work, heck you should be makin' money here

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BMI,ASCAP,PRS...they are also all unions. And as unions, they each have strong arm techniques that they use. There are cities (New York and Boston come to mind) where a musician can't perform in a club unless s/he is a member of either ASCAP or BMI or sometimes both. This all started in the 1920s and probably will keep happening for a long time. It is very sad in a way.

On a similar note, try acting in any kind of professional play if you are non-equity and see what happens.

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Joe Breault
Merrimack, NH
Perpetual novice

[QUOTE=arvey] American think of us as being very British and the Brits think of us as so American.[/QUOTE]
Well, you ARE the other "United States of America!" We just grabbed the name first!

[QUOTE=JBreault] BMI,ASCAP,PRS...they are also all unions.[/QUOTE]
Um, no, they're not. They are performance rights organizations, and participation is voluntary; however, any songwriter who needs to eat would be less than smart to not sign up with one of them. If you create something that didn't exist before, you deserve to be compensated if someone else uses it (and, concerning length of copyright, your HEIRS should benefit as well). The law, I think, does intend to include any public performance of music under its blanket, including for-profit and not-for-profit settings, because anything less would open up too many loopholes. BTW, songwriters really do receive payment from these organizations, and that's why playlists are required to be up-to-date.

I do believe, though, that the spirit of copyright law was not meant to include impromptu jams where no money changes hands. I suspect BMI's strongarm tactics are being driven by the combination of hard times in the industry and the outright theft of recorded music that many people seem to think is their right.

Carlton I started this thread, so I guess I should make myself clear. Ascap, and BMI are definately worthwile organizations, and are very important to the music industry in general. Without them, recording artists would be getting ripped off much more than they do. I also know that copyright is civil, and for protection to be effective, one's right of owneship must be pursued.
Here's the kicker. When I was a young musician, back in the 1960's there were venues for semi professional musicians to perform every weekend. There were teen-towns in almost evey small town, and 12-20 clubs for the youngsters. Almost every night club, and Eagles, Elks, Moose, etc. had live music. Now look around.. They're almost all gone. The clubs are still there for the adults, but the youngsters have almost nothing, and the kids have no place to play. Without a place to perform, why bother?
BMI needs to support the amateur, and semi-professional musicians, because these people are the recording industry's future. Supporting them is allowing it to be cost effective for the teen club, civic center, and small nightclub to be able to provide a place for the future recording artists to perform, learn and grow into true professionals.
I enjoy almost all styles of music from Metallica To Charly Daniels with clasical, blues and gospel in between. The true professional musicians and their oganizations must look at their own past, and how they got started in their own careers.
It looks to me that greed has taken over where good sense and moderation should be the rule. It seems that they are thinking like lawyers who support the letter of the law over the spirit.
When venues are taken away, and ill feelings are created, the whole music industry is hurt.
Best regards

AlA Peebels38875.7971875

Al, I agree completely. I grew up with the same musical opportunities, and definitely lament their loss. In larger cities, though, I think those teen "clubs" were shut down by the Musician's Union, which was much more powerful in the '60's & '70's. In smaller cities, I think it was just economics that did them in, and keep them from springing up today.

As I mentioned above, I suspect that BMI's current tactics are driven by hard times in the industry. I'm not apologizing for their "to the letter" attitude, which I think can stifle excitement about music, but I can understand it.

When I was a sophmore in high school, I was the recording secretary of the West Frankfort Il Local Of The AF of M. Most bands around here were union members, and it seems that the musician's union went away about the same time as everything else. I Don't know do they still exist?

Al

OOps i lied, I was a senior. Sorry 'bout that.

Al

You're all forgiven my friend!

What's the problem? Tell them you only play traditional music and then see if they can tell the difference.

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Pete
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